Laurie:
Ivy has not only the 'Carmen's a crook, so I can't trust her' attitude, but the 'I am really independent' attitude as well. She feels that she can easily take care of herself at all times, and maybe doesn't like to admit when she actually needs help.
Kara:
Exactly! Ivy I think has a much harder time accepting Carmen's 'good qualities' shall we say? I mean, in one episode, I think it was 'Hot Ice', Carmen mentions something about how when she was a detective, she had to rely on her wits and intelligence to get her through a case. Then, Ivy says something like, 'Well, you must lost most of that when you became a thief.' Au contraire, Ivy! :)
Other times, I forget which episodes, it's whenever somebody said how wonderful Carmen was a a detective, Ivy always had something negative to say about it. It almost gave me the impression that Ivy somehow doubted that Carmen was as good as everyone says she was. It's almost like Ivy has this drive to not only capture Carmen, but surpass her success at Acme.
Zack, I think, is much more easygoing about it. I think that's just his more laid back personality. He's not as quick tempered as Ivy, he tends to think about people's actions and their motivations a bit more than Ivy does. Still, Ivy does care somewhat for Carmen, I mean, that's why I suggested her quote from the end of 'Footprints' be added to the quote list. Still, you get the feeling even then that Ivy believes that Carmen was throughout her entire life, a terribly misguided person.
You know, I think this is one of the most intesting threads we've had in a long time! I'm really enjoying this! :) :)
Jaci:
Ivy's wrong. Carmen never lost her wits and her intelligence when she became a thief. In fact, you need your wits and intelligence when you're either a detective or a thief. And yes, it was in 'Hot Ice' where this conversation took place, when Zack and Ivy thwarted Carmen's attempt to use a diamond to wreak havoc in the C-5 corridor. I never considered the possibiltiy that Ivy could be driven to surpass Carmen's success at Acme as well as capturing Carmen. That reminds me to some extent of Lee Jordan's drive to best Carmen as either a detective or a thief. However, Ivy is more mature than 'El Creepo'.
Laurie:
Yeah, Zack is more laid back. He's there saying, 'Chill sis, don't go ballistic!' While sometimes he's driven to catch Carmen as much as Ivy sometimes, he keeps his frustration level at a much lower level.
Zack has gotten ticked when Carmen's escaped (especially in 'The Tigress,' but that's understandable- they did all that and Carmen escaped on them) but overall, he's like, 'Oh well, better luck next time.'
Meanwhile Ivy is ticked off all the time. Also, when Carmen has just saved her butt, she's still ready to try to catch her a second later. For example, in part 1 of 'Boyhood's End,' she tries to open the canopy to try to arrest her. Me? I'd be too worried about hitting the ground to worry about that. I'd be hanging on for dear life. Also, there was an ep. (I think 'Music to My Ears,' but I'm not 100% sure) where Ivy's hanging on to Carmen's vechile, and Zack's hanging on to her. Zack says something like, 'Don't let go!' and Ivy replies, 'We have to jump now! If we don't, Carmen will drop us off on a deserted island somewhere!'
Personally, I'd prefer the deserted island to risking becoming a greasy spot on the cement.
Ivy does kinda care for Carmen, which is evident in 'Footprints' and sympathizes a bit in 'The Remnants,' but still, Ivy sees Carmen as misguided. In 'Deja Vu' what she says to Suhara- I think that sums up what she really thinks. (She tells him, 'With her ablities, she could have been teh greatest detective of all time. Instead she chose to waste what she had on a life of crime.')
Jaci:
I agree. Zack is more laid back and more willing to accept Carmen's good qualities, although in 'Deja Vu' he was rather impatient with Suhara until Suhara taught him to relax enough to take tea.
And yes, I'd be too worried about hitting the ground to actually try to open the canopy to arrest Carmen. I'd also prefer the deserted island to risking becoming a greasy spot on the cement. :)
At times, when I'm stumped on some puzzle I'm trying to work on, I can get really frustrated, but overall I think I'm more like Zack than Ivy. Not that Ivy's attitude is all bad, it's just that it would work a lot better with less complex criminals. Like 'El Creepo'. He's a perfect example of one who could have been the greatest detective of all time, but chose to waste what he had on a life of crime.
Kara:
I know! In that ep. I was like, 'Okay, Ivy, Carmen just saved your butt. You and 'El Creepo' would have been Italian subway pizza if she wasn't there to save you And what do you do? Try and open the door! That's crazy. I mean, even Lee didn't try and do that, he may be a jerk, but he has some sense of his own mortality!
I shouldn't even talk about that 'sense of mortality' thing! Look at Carmen! She backflips off skyscrapers for a living..... in heels! :)
Yeah, and there was that time in 'When it Rains', too. Remember? Carmen had just helped Zack n' Ivy break out of 'Psycho Sara's House o' Fun' (actually, it was a museum) And instead of being greatful for helping them out, (once again!), she's ticked because she got away! I mean, the first words out of Ivy's mouth are, 'Arrgh! She got away!' not 'Thanks, Carmen, for all your help.'
Kids these days. No manners. :)
Ivy does respect Carmen, but for the longest time she's totally oblivious to the fact Carmen cares for her. And when she does wise up to that, she's not very comfortable with it. I think I tried to show that in my story. Zack's pretty much able to deal with it, I think he understands Carmen a lot more than Ivy does, where Ivy just misunderstands her 95% of the time.
Laurie, you really hit the nail on the head with that quote from 'Deja Vu'. That's Ivy's attitude towards Carmen to a T. Not that I don't think Ivy's bad, or that I don't like her. No, I think the way she drop-kicks those henchmen is pretty cool! :) But, I think she's wrong on that point. And in the way she treats Carmen sometimes. I mean, that's gotta hurt somewhat. To think that if Zack hadn't been there to catch her, Ivy would have died because she didn't want her help.
Jaci:
I know. In 'When it Rains', when Ivy said, 'Arrgh! She got away!' I was thinking, 'Hey! You can't get Carmen when you've got hold of Sara!' Same thing with the end of 'Boyhood's End', where Lee is captured but they have to let Carmen go. At least there Ivy may be aware that they could get Carmen next time by saying, 'Today a creep like you, Lee'. But in 'When it Rains', I would have been aware that I couldn't have caught both Sara and Carmen at that point, and been grateful to Carmen for helping me out.
Not that I hate Ivy, I don't. I admire her ability to take care of herself, whereas Zack can't do that. Ivy thinks in more black-and-white terms, which hinders her ability to understand Carmen, whereas Zack probably thinks in more 'gray' terms, enabling him to understand Carmen better.
If Carmen was a stereotypical villainess, then Ivy's attitude would be right on. But as we know, Carmen's not that way, so Ivy's wrong on that point.
And yes, this is a very cool thread.
Oops! I think I kinda mixed up the thread!...part of this may not make sense, sorry...
Jaci:
Indeed, Ivy is much more mature than Lee. But, the way she always tries to discredit Carmen's accomplishments, it's almost like she wants to say that she's better than her.
Well, I don't think Ivy's better than Carmen. Not because Ivy's not an excellent detective (we all know she is), it's just that her hotheaded, stubborn nature makes her not quite as good as Carmen. Zack's almost as good as Carmen, but he's less able to take care of himself. Though I did love his 'Three Stooges' routine that he used against those henchmen. :)
Laurie:
Zack does have the cooler head of the two. Maybe someday he'll be able to take care of himself better, you know? But yes, that Three Stooges routine was priceless. :)
Jaci:
Yes, Zack's Three Stooges routine was priceless! :) Ivy takes on the bad guys with a couple of well-placed karate chops which knock them out, and Zack totally confuses them (and makes me LOL in the process) with his interpretation of the Three Stooges, until Ivy has to grab him and get going to catch Carmen.
Kara:
I adore Zack's routine in that episode! That really was the show at it's best there. 'Hey, Moe! A leaky faucet!' :) :)
Lio:
Indeed.
Jaci:
I know I can't take care of myself at all times, and is ready to admit when I need help. I think Ivy's attitude is helpful at times, but not very helpful when she's in trouble.